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Thread: ***ERROR*** MAX_EDGE_LINES

  1. #11

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    Im not asking you to join the project, im just inviting to there so you can understand a bit of the project and speak with us about modding on mohaa too because we have a part only for modding of the game in case someone need help on that.

    The website of the project is on this link:

    MOHUE

  2. #12
    Administrator James's Avatar
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    Not to get too off topic, but I remember a few years ago I ran into a vis limitation while compiling my map. Basically it was my beta approach at fixing wallhacks. I saw that putting caulk sandwiched between brushes basically prevented wallhacking. It wasn't perfect, but it was the best thing available at that time. Anyway, when I was testing it on a small map it wasn't a problem, but then when I started doing it to the stock maps, I ran into the limitation issue. Needless to say, I still wanted to see if I can "trick" the compiler into compiling my map....

    To conclude; my custom stalingrad map with caulked brush took 3 days to compile, and it still didn't finish. I think it was between 60-70%. Even if I had the patience to let it finish; the size and amount of calculations required for that map to load for clients; would make the game virtually unplayable, so the lesson learned was that it wasn't worth putting in all that time; because the game/engine just wasn't built for something like that. I even tried bypassing the vis limitations; which if memory serves me right; was something like 32,000.

    Even if you do get your map to compile; like what smithy said, it just doesn't seem feasible to play (unfortunately). Hopefully that doesn't discourage you from continuing to make maps, because that's an awesome hobby/skill to know and learn. I just wouldn't get all your hopes up for it.

    With regards to UE4, there is a lot of forward progress with that project. It's probably more persistent with getting done than reborn has been. A lot of things have already been ported into the new engine and now I believe there are a few more things that needs to be optimized in the game, but the idea is to make the game play as close to the original as possible; with the additional perk of having a better engine around the game; so that a map like yours along with other mods could be supported.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by AccadaccA View Post
    The maps aren't going anywhere so please don't stress over having to test them any time soon.
    No worries, I know you weren't having a go!
    But I legit have more time, so I hope you could send them all to me ^^ Will be nice to do a few in a row!

  4. #14

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    Sorry about the disheartening, Acca. I think your map is largely possible. Some detailing and certain locations probably need to be reduced in complexity and size, but the overall design appears doable. Most areas of the map have reasonably good visibility lines which will reduce onscreen poly count. The focus just needs to be on optimisation for now, really.

    When making maps, it's always good to plan the visibility, size, and layout (including gameplay). Most professional level designers will have a fairly thorough planning phase, where detailing is strictly off the table, no matter how strong the temptation. Many will draw crude sketches on software or even paper, and then begin on the block-out phase where basic shapes that form the main structure of the entire level are placed in the editor. So a building would start out as a large cube, a road would be a basic rectangular brush, and so on, until the size and layout is how you want it, for the most part. Iteration will always occur, even in the later stages, but this early design will be the foundation. Then once you're happy with that, you begin to craft the actual geometry. Roads become patches, blocks become houses, and so on. You may find it easier to determine what buildings should be accessible and which ones should be 'facades' when working from this approach. Visibility can also be worked out early on. For example, your church towers have a view of the entire level, which will be a problem for FPS (mine goes down to 60-70 on a pretty high-end 980 Ti if I look at the entire map). A way around this would be to place other tall buildings in certain directions to block visibility lines. But again, this would have been done early on when blocking it all out. You also get a general 'feel' for the size of the map during its infancy if you work this way, making you less likely to experience map-breaking problems further down the line.

    It's hard at times to keep to this methodology. Believe me, I fail miserably at this too. The professionals swear by it, however, and often claim their embracing of this method helped them on their path to transforming from skilled amateurs to professional-level designers. I'm lucky that some of my singleplayer design shortcomings can be masked by splitting the levels into multiple BSPs and loading screens . You don't have this luxury, unfortunately.

    There are loads of resources out there that go through this process.

    RE crashing when shooting: It appears that the render is having issues allocating models. Certain weapons are invisible in my hands on your map, grenades don't explode, and so on. The log is spammed with: RE_RegisterModel: R_AllocModel() failed for 'models/fx/grenexp_base.tik' messages.

    Looking at the renderer code in opm, it could be due to the MAX_MOD_KNOWN limit being reached in R_AllocModel function:

    Code:
    if(tr.numModels == MAX_MOD_KNOWN)
    	{
    		return NULL;
    	}
    Not entirely sure why, but the size and complexity of the map likely has something to do with it. Though it could also be an isolated section (or sections) of the map that needs finding and fixing.

    RE converting brushes into models: I believe Zappa helped someone out with converting maps to Blender, and some software was shared that can do certain conversions, so he may be able to point you in the right direction.

    Edit: see post https://www.x-null.net/forums/thread...6325#post36325

    Quote Originally Posted by Zappa View Post
    Open that .map file with GtkRadiant using quake 3 as base game (need quake 3 to be installed)
    Replace all 'common/caulk' textures with 'stone/pjrock1' (a stone texture from quake 3)
    Compile a bsp: (single bsp) -meta
    Last edited by 1337Smithy; December 13th, 2019 at 04:17 AM.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Basically it was my beta approach at fixing wallhacks. I saw that putting caulk sandwiched between brushes basically prevented wallhacking.
    Let me correct you, James
    It was the hint texture, caulk is just an invisible texture with no side effects on visibility


    This is the video of that test map (uploaded on Aug 20, 2007)

    Mohaa Anti Cheat - Spread The Word
    Mohaa Patch 1.12
    Credit Goes To Eletrickrypt And m0d hippY

    This is the README that comes along with that test map
    Code:
    **************************************************************************
    INTRO:
    **************************************************************************
    
    When writting this, I ASSUME YOU HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE WITH Q3MAPPING!
    
    This is one method m0d hippY and I (electrickrypt) found to prevent cheat 
    skins and other wallhacks in Medal of Honor: Allied Assault to be seen through
    walls. 
    
    Included in this demo is the map source to the ANTI WALLHACK demo video viewed 
    here:
    http://www.fYCcreationZ.com/files/vid/xnull_anticham.wmv
    along with a compiled version.
    
    Also included:
    MOH TOOLS [FULL PACKAGE]
     Moh Radiant Map Editor
     MBuilder
     MoHAA Stock Maps
     Pakscape
    
    Please include us in the credits if you use this to pursue any work to release 
    any Anti-Cheats.
    
    
    
    
    
    **************************************************************************
    How its done:
    **************************************************************************
    
    Done by placing multiple (small, but tall, equivalent size to a player)  
    "hint" brushes (textures/common/hint) around stock maps filling ALL possible 
    spaces where a player can occupy. You do this with the MoHAA map editor
    MOH Radiant.
    
    The Allied Assault q3 engine will allow you to add hints to stock maps
    (without modifying anything else!), compile with MBuilder, host, and allow 
    clients to connect without the new redone stock map version. Therefor, being a 
    server side mod.
    
    During the map compiling process, these hints break up the map in multiple 
    vis areas(visportals). The compiler will ask each hint which other hints it 
    can see without being blocked by STRUCTURAL brushes. The only way the hint 
    would not be able to see another hint, is if it is blind sighted by a structural 
    brush. Structural brushes are needed in order to blind it from other hints. 
    These structural brushes also help to break up the map in different vis areas.
    The other kind of brush is a DETAIL brush. These brushes are ignored by the
    compiler making them useless in this demo.
    ***[See Additional Info below]
    
    Imagine one player (PLAYER 1) is standing inside a hint brush (HINT-A), 
    and a second player (PLAYER 2) is standing in another hint brush (HINT-B).
    If HINT-A cannot see HINT-B, PLAYER 1 will not be rendered on PLAYER 2's
    screen and vice versa. If either player is using cheat skins (or any wallhack),
    the wallwack will not be rendered, preventing the wallhack.
    
    However, there are problems.
    There is a visportal limit just above 2 million units.
    This limit is capped in the q3map.exe.
    
    (*LoadPortals: NumVisBytes XXXXXXX exceeds 2097152)
    
    m0d hippY managed to bypass the cap but resulted with side effects that 
    jepordized the whole map and made it unplayable.
    
    
    
    **************************************************************************
    Additional Info:
    **************************************************************************
    
    VIS FOR DUMMIES!
    http://web.telia.com/~u26123488/vis/visfordummies.htm
    http://modsonline.com/Tutorials-read-135.html
    
    
    ***Some maps do not use structural brushes (ie. The Hunt).
    Without structural brushes, the hint's are useless.
    This is where you would use vis_leafgroups. Yet, I have not confirmed if the 
    vis_leafgroups work properly via server side. But I don't see why not and have 
    not had the time to try.
    
    VIS LEAF GROUPS!
    http://map.planetmedalofhonor.gamespy.com/mohaa/t.php?id=80
    sorry for the off-topicness

  6. #16

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    But caulk brushes, if structural, will also block visibility because they too will create vis leaves . In fact, they will be more aggressive at this. Hint brushes are just invisible non-solid versions of a caulked structural brush, but need to be used in conjunction with existing structural geometry. Looking directly at a hint brush wall won't hide whats behind it, but a caulk brush can.

    It could be the case that James was talking about using hints, as Stalingrad does have a mostly Structural design, but there may be times where placing caulk inside Detail walls would achieve good results. For example, replace the textured walls creating the corridors in that video with caulk and it will also hide any leaves that aren't inside your PVS. You'll be able to see players pop in and out without the need for a wallhack .

    Edit: see the bottom of the readme:
    Code:
    ***Some maps do not use structural brushes (ie. The Hunt).
    Without structural brushes, the hint's are useless.
    This is where you would use vis_leafgroups. Yet, I have not confirmed if the 
    vis_leafgroups work properly via server side. But I don't see why not and have 
    not had the time to try.
    If you're trying to create leafs around Detail brushwork, that's where placing caulk brushes inside will come in handy .
    Last edited by 1337Smithy; December 13th, 2019 at 03:53 AM.

  7. #17

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    Are you sure using caulk inside walls give the same result?

    here is the test map mohaa_server_fix_antiwallhack_src_v1-2.zip
    you will see it's filled with 24x24 units "hint" brushes

    maybe you can do a "caulk" version of this map, compare the results and make a new thread about it? (to not make this thread more off topic than already is xD)
    just for fun, only to see what anti-wh version is less glitchy; hint, caulk or the reborn anti-wh lol


    BTW, I'm still waiting for the .lod files tutorial o.O

  8. #18

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    In terms of the test map shown in the video, no there's no need for using caulk. I just mean that if you replaced all the textured walls with caulk it wouldn't change your PVS one bit, you'll still see people popping in and out as they move behind them. You would still need the hints as well though. If, say, you wanted to make areas of the destroyed buildings in The Hunt into separate leaves, you could theoretically place caulk inside some of the walls (or indeed make the original walls structural, but that may not be as efficient). It wouldn't be good to replace any legitimately placed hints with caulk because it will just create solid walls in the play space. My point was just that caulk can affect visibility like any normal textured wall will.

    Looking at the map you provided and like you said, he's just increased the number of leaves that will be created on the map using the 24x24 blocks all over. Changing the -blocksize value on the BSP compile will yield the same or similar results (-blocksize 24), so if this method was viable for an entire map, you wouldn't even need to place anything, we have a command that does it all for us . But this isn't recommended on proper maps, and his method just wouldn't be viable either, because of the VIS limit that he mentions. Some official singleplayer maps did the same in places (submarine pens on m2l2a for example) but used larger hint blocks.

    RE LoD, yes, sorry, I keep forgetting about that lol.

    Edit: Yep, removing all the hint brushes and using -blocksize 24 on the BSP stage yields the same results. Increases the VIS just as much, though, so neither are viable options, unless it's a small map or you don't want it to be ubiquitous in the map (like m2l2a). I just dropped in some AI standing around and caulked all the walls so I could see the results. The guy who made that map mistakenly used common/blank_lightmap instead of common/caulk, though, so I had to go back and recompile again, ha. The amount of times mappers accidentally do that because both shaders share the same editor image lol.
    Last edited by 1337Smithy; December 13th, 2019 at 06:30 AM.

  9. #19
    Administrator James's Avatar
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    Ahh yes, thanks for correcting me Zappa. It was a while ago and I couldn't remember the details. :P

  10. #20

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    DoubleKill: Thanks for the link. I've had it sent to me before thinking it was another installment of the MOH franchise as I never noticed the Stalingrad video.
    Dang, I'm impressed.

    James: Thanks for the reassurance. It's good to know that the project is still moving forward. I wish I could help in some way but my coding is limited to VB6. That's probably fine for MOHAA but not UE.
    Keep up the good work.

    Shadow: Thanks mate, I'll throw you a few maps to look over at your leisure. Please don't feel the need to have to report on them.
    We never got word back on Remagen's escape hole so I just raised all of the clips.
    I fixed the default vehicle bug where you shoot a full magazine into it's door and the vehicle disappeared. lol I never knew that was a thing. Besides it was already clipped but needed double clipping, apparently.

    Don't forget to checkout the pk3 explorer I made for you. When you get a chance, it's linked in one of the more recent emails.
    Let me know if you want anything added or changed.


    1337Smithy:
    Quote Originally Posted by 1337Smithy View Post
    Sorry about the disheartening, Acca. ....
    Don't be, mate. It was the reality check I needed.
    I did go back to it and caulked the ends of the crane cross-bracing. I also caulked a lot of the hospital that I had made in no draw and I made a lot of walls and floors structural.
    I removed the problem building's two rounded corners and made them 45 degrees straight brushes but it still killed the compile.
    I then made the angled corners purple detail, without any improvement to the compile so I deleted them all together only to find that the "shoot & crash" bug still exists.

    RE converting brushes into models: I believe Zappa helped someone out with converting maps to Blender, and some software was shared that can do certain conversions, so he may be able to point you in the right direction.

    Edit: see post https://www.x-null.net/forums/thread...6325#post36325
    That's right. I recall reading that thread not so long ago. Thanks for the reminder.
    Also thanks to Zappa for that post.
    I'm not sure if I still have Quake3.

    RE crashing when shooting: It appears that the render is having issues allocating models. Certain weapons are invisible in my hands on your map, grenades don't explode, and so on. The log is spammed with: RE_RegisterModel: R_AllocModel() failed for 'models/fx/grenexp_base.tik' messages.

    Looking at the renderer code in opm, it could be due to the MAX_MOD_KNOWN limit being reached in R_AllocModel function:
    There is nowhere near the maximum models in this map. 6 vehicles 2 telephones, two radios, a microphone and a few dozen lights (with coronas).
    I have a working map with over 800 models. Two of those are the same truck I've edited.
    Thank you all the same for looking into it. I'm sorry but I just can't see that as being the issue.

    Oops I forgot the trees. But the map has had all of those models in it and still worked fine when shooting or throwing grenades.
    Hmm, I may have copied the buildings back with the lights and static models on, to a version of the map with the lights & models filtered. That would cause double-ups which would explain the error suggesting models.

    Hang on I'll deleted all of the lights and coronas in those two buildings that have been removed and replaced.
    If it works I shall return promptly after the compile to let you know.
    Otherwise I'll be watching YouTube videos of newer games. lol

    BTW, sorry to all for inadvertently opening a can of worms about ... um... whatever that was about. lol
    Oh yeah, seeing through walls.
    Peace out.

    Edit: Nope that's no it. Those two buildings don't have coronas yet.
    Last edited by AccadaccA; December 13th, 2019 at 06:54 PM.

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